SAG-AFTRA has been making more moves in the podcast space as video podcasts gain momentum on streamers and more.
Recently, The Pete Davidson Show, the first original podcast launched by Netflix, made headlines after signing a SAG-AFTRA podcast agreement. The move may chart a course as more podcasts pop up on streamers, and as SAG-AFTRA ramps up its efforts in the space, while trying to define what constitutes a podcast versus a streaming show.
It’s difficult to quantify exactly how much coverage the union already has in the podcast space, given the large number of shows, according to Sue-Anne Morrow, the national director of contract strategic initiatives and podcasts at SAG-AFTRA, but she said the union already has “a lot of density” in scripted dramatic podcasts and expects to cover more interview podcasts as well as narrative podcasts going forward.
“We’re expanding our coverage of work quickly,” Morrow told The Hollywood Reporter after a panel at the On Air Fest in Brooklyn Tuesday.
SAG-AFTRA currently has two podcasts contracts: the micropod, which covers podcasts earnings less than $10,000 per season and is intended for SAG-AFTRA members dipping their toes into the medium, and the independent podcast agreement for podcasts earnings more than $10,000 per season. Both were created in 2023.
Morrow did not comment on what specific contract The Pete Davidson Show signed. Most projects fit under the independent podcast agreement, she said, but companies can also negotiate their own specific agreements. Those agreements, and adjustments to the independent contract, are made with input from the union’s podcast committee.
“Our podcast agreements are very flexible. They are really relevant to the space. The department is really accustomed to working with all different kinds of shapes and sizes of podcasts. But sometimes companies do come to us and they want to negotiate an agreement that’s specific to them, just because of their specific needs and the type of project it is, and so we are open to that. Mostly projects fit under our independent podcast agreement,” Morrow said.
“When an audio visual podcast comes to us from a streamer like Netflix, to us, if we cover it on YouTube, we’re going to cover it on Netflix,” she added.
One challenge, however, is the shifting definition of what a podcast is, particularly as video podcasts appear on Netflix and more. Morrow said there are some internal metrics the union uses in the determination (which she did not disclose), but they also listen to the industry.
“It’s something that we are constantly talking about internally. How are we going to define podcasts in six weeks, six months, six years? So we’re sort of trying to reflect back to the industry, what the industry is saying to us. If the industry says we think this is a podcast we’re going to look at that and say, ‘Well, what does that mean now? What is a podcast now?’ And try to cover it in a way that makes sense for the producers of that and for the performers in it,” Morrow said.
“To a certain degree, it sort of doesn’t matter to us, because if a project comes to us and it really doesn’t feel like a podcast, then we have other ways of covering that work,” she added.
Industry members have one definition, seeing a podcast as “on demand, episodic content, and audio forward,” though not necessarily audio only, according to Tom Webster, partner at the podcast trade association Sounds Profitable. But the general audience is increasingly seeing it as a “chat show,” he said, which also has an influence on the medium.
While the podcast contracts are seen as cheaper for companies, Morrow said an actor on a video podcast contract is not necessarily taking a pay cut compared to a daytime TV show contract (though that contract requires residuals). The pay rate depends on the project budget, the company or producers behind it and the SAG-AFTRA members in question.
“It’s not our intention to provide a lower-level contract. We want to make sure that everybody is being respected and supported in all areas of the industry. So it shouldn’t feel like that’s the cheaper contract,” Morrow said.
The contract coverage applies to the host or hosts, and also applies to guests, who have the power to waive the applicable fee for their appearance. Morrow notes it’s up to the guest to waive the fee, and that the fee does not always make sense for an editorial appearance. The overall intent is to provide the other protections of the contract.
“There is no minimum rate for a guest on a podcast, but we do expect for especially performers and our members, when they’re on podcasts, to be covered when they’re guests as well. We expect them to get a contract,” Morrow said.
Per a sample independent podcast agreement from 2024, minimum pay rates are negotiable. Benefit contributions are required at a 20 percent rate of the performer’s gross compensation, and are capped at $15,000 per episode or $100,000 per season, per performer. Specific podcast agreements with podcast companies may have minimum rates and terms that differ.
Otherwise, the independent podcast agreement provides eligibility toward SAG-AFTRA health insurance and pension benefits, prohibit the use of generative AI related to the performer’s voice and likeness and more. The independent podcast agreement also provides a pathway toward SAG-AFTRA membership, if the podcaster is not already a member.
The push toward video podcasts comes as more daytime TV shows, which had been heavily unionized, get the axe, in part due to the growing popularity of podcasts, as well as the cheaper economics. .
WGA East has also made inroads into podcasting, after unionizing writers at podcasting companies including The Ringer, Pushkin Industries, Pineapple Street Studios, Spotify Studios, iHeartMedia and Crooked Media. Morrow added that SAG-AFTRA concentrated only on organizing hosts and performers, but hopes more jobs in the space will become covered.
Podcasts that were created through broadcast stations or through audiobook divisions are also covered under SAG-AFTRA, albeit under different agreements.
As for how she’s viewing the addition of podcasts to streaming services, Morrow said she’s not sure yet whether they will have staying power there or not.
“I think it will be interesting to see what happens in the coming months. I think that’s a very new development, and we certainly are watching it very closely. But I think it’s hard to say whether or not folks are going to want to watch podcasts on those platforms or not,” Morrow said.